Massimo: Two provocative essays and I look forward to the third. Your frame intrigues me. You introduce your topic through your early discovery and life long love of the Odysseus story. You could have been the model for the small boy in the movie, Cinema Paradiso.
In exactly the same way, I fell in love with a modern Homeric hero, Captain James Cook, not through movies and TV (we had no TV and saw few movies) but through books and relentless indoctrination in the Australian school system. Captain Cook, and his notorious sometime colleague, William Bligh, set out on voyages of discovery in the South Seas and both were involved in the early development of colonization of Australia (at the time exclusively penal colonies). They had adventures that were as strange as anything in the Odyssey (the transit of Venus, apotheosis, monsters, fishes, and plants never seen before, native girls, shipwrecks, mutinies). They travelled around the world from Canada to the islands of Hawaii to Norfolk Island and Australia. Eventually some of Bligh's mutinous crew found sanctuary on Pitcairn Island, where a small group of their descendants still lives.
But has any modern philosopher delved into the psyches or inner selves of these two remarkable men, as you have described ancient philosophers who analyzed Odysseus? This may be a naive question. There are biographies (covering professional and personal lives) of both Cook and Bligh. Perhaps some of these are the modern equivalents of analyses by ancient philosophers of Odysseus.
The stories of Odysseus and Cook are alike. Both were committed sailors, endlessly curious, resourceful, quick minded, and persuasive. The theme that pulls both stories together is the voyages each took across the trackless wastes of the seas.
Does the story of Cook help us as modern stoics, as we try to live our lives? Perhaps.
Judy, good questions. But I'm not as familiar with Cook and Bligh as I a with Odysseus to be in a position to answer them. In school we did study their story, but not in as much detail as you probably did.
I'm not aware of philosophical treatments of C&B analogous to those of Odysseus, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. One big difference, of course, is that in one case we are talking about actual historical figures while in the other we are dealing with mythology. The cultural symbolism is therefore more obvious in the case of Odysseus.
The talk of roles and the distinction of how seriously we play them brings me back to Ted Sarbin, whose work on psychology centered around how our behavior is organized by the roles we take on. He had this fascinating proposal that the depth scales in hypnosis were actually measuring a disposition to take on suggested roles. He distinguished merely “playing” a role with actually “taking” a role which was more like taking the role seriously and living by it even though we recognize it as only one among many roles we could take on. I’m thinking much of it seems consistent with the thinking you are describing here. Thank you.
I’ll stay tuned. You close this essay with reference to living in “the best” city. Best is such a rich concept, perhaps worthy of a book, essay, or podcast. In America, it commonly refers to tangible stuff. That’s less so, in many other countries. In some places “best” refers to soft stuff like ideas and/or quality of life. There’s virtue in that.
Lately, many TV commentators need to say “I am not a lawyer, but...” I need to say “I am not a philosopher, but...” I am a person committed to learning stuff that matters and passing it on. Because of this provocative essay, I learned that Bion also said “You do not possess wealth, it possesses you.” I, and likely others, would benefit from reading/hearing you on that.
For what it is worth, I do think the philosophers absorbed Odysseus in a theological way, too, although I know neither Massimo or I are keen on that angle. E.g.: (1) Epictetus cites Odysseus in I.12.3 as having the right view about divine providence and omniscience; (2) at the end of the Republic, the timing for the myth of Er implies that Odysseus chose a life that falls during the Classical period. He selects “the life of a private individual who did his own work [i.e. one who does not engage in politics)], and with difficulty it found one lying off somewhere neglected by the others. He chose it gladly and said that he’d have made the same choice even if he’d been first” (620c) Plato might very well mean that Odysseus chose to be Socrates. And, Xenophon, Memorabilia 4.6.11, explains why this would fit: “He [Socrates] used to say that Homer himself attributed to Odysseus the quality of being an infallible speaker, because he could base his arguments on the accepted beliefs of his hearers.”
Great article. I feel like role ethics and the example of Odysseus might give me a helpful framing to approach aspects like my life like my career. In the US, there is a not so subtle urging to subsume your entire identity in your livelihood. I find myself torn by the pressure to be the absolute best at my job, and my awareness that my work and my income are only parts of me, and ultimately subordinate to the part of me concerned with virtue. I guess then I should play the role given to me, as best as I can, until it conflicts with virtue.
Christopher, exactly. The role ethics framework has been very useful to me on two grounds: thinking about what I do and who I am; and thinking about how I can best balance my various roles in any given occasion.
Massimo: Two provocative essays and I look forward to the third. Your frame intrigues me. You introduce your topic through your early discovery and life long love of the Odysseus story. You could have been the model for the small boy in the movie, Cinema Paradiso.
In exactly the same way, I fell in love with a modern Homeric hero, Captain James Cook, not through movies and TV (we had no TV and saw few movies) but through books and relentless indoctrination in the Australian school system. Captain Cook, and his notorious sometime colleague, William Bligh, set out on voyages of discovery in the South Seas and both were involved in the early development of colonization of Australia (at the time exclusively penal colonies). They had adventures that were as strange as anything in the Odyssey (the transit of Venus, apotheosis, monsters, fishes, and plants never seen before, native girls, shipwrecks, mutinies). They travelled around the world from Canada to the islands of Hawaii to Norfolk Island and Australia. Eventually some of Bligh's mutinous crew found sanctuary on Pitcairn Island, where a small group of their descendants still lives.
But has any modern philosopher delved into the psyches or inner selves of these two remarkable men, as you have described ancient philosophers who analyzed Odysseus? This may be a naive question. There are biographies (covering professional and personal lives) of both Cook and Bligh. Perhaps some of these are the modern equivalents of analyses by ancient philosophers of Odysseus.
The stories of Odysseus and Cook are alike. Both were committed sailors, endlessly curious, resourceful, quick minded, and persuasive. The theme that pulls both stories together is the voyages each took across the trackless wastes of the seas.
Does the story of Cook help us as modern stoics, as we try to live our lives? Perhaps.
Judy, good questions. But I'm not as familiar with Cook and Bligh as I a with Odysseus to be in a position to answer them. In school we did study their story, but not in as much detail as you probably did.
I'm not aware of philosophical treatments of C&B analogous to those of Odysseus, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. One big difference, of course, is that in one case we are talking about actual historical figures while in the other we are dealing with mythology. The cultural symbolism is therefore more obvious in the case of Odysseus.
The talk of roles and the distinction of how seriously we play them brings me back to Ted Sarbin, whose work on psychology centered around how our behavior is organized by the roles we take on. He had this fascinating proposal that the depth scales in hypnosis were actually measuring a disposition to take on suggested roles. He distinguished merely “playing” a role with actually “taking” a role which was more like taking the role seriously and living by it even though we recognize it as only one among many roles we could take on. I’m thinking much of it seems consistent with the thinking you are describing here. Thank you.
Todd, that's interesting, thanks for sharing!
Some lessons - try to endure and accepto Fati, as tranquilly and as cheerfully as possible. And memento mori, et memento vivere!
Yet another so helpful essay - personally and philosophically!👏😊
I’ll stay tuned. You close this essay with reference to living in “the best” city. Best is such a rich concept, perhaps worthy of a book, essay, or podcast. In America, it commonly refers to tangible stuff. That’s less so, in many other countries. In some places “best” refers to soft stuff like ideas and/or quality of life. There’s virtue in that.
Yes, in this context, “best” refers to most just and virtuous, definitely not to material possessions.
Lately, many TV commentators need to say “I am not a lawyer, but...” I need to say “I am not a philosopher, but...” I am a person committed to learning stuff that matters and passing it on. Because of this provocative essay, I learned that Bion also said “You do not possess wealth, it possesses you.” I, and likely others, would benefit from reading/hearing you on that.
Francesca, yes, I like Bion’s comment as well. I might write more extensively on the topic soon.
For what it is worth, I do think the philosophers absorbed Odysseus in a theological way, too, although I know neither Massimo or I are keen on that angle. E.g.: (1) Epictetus cites Odysseus in I.12.3 as having the right view about divine providence and omniscience; (2) at the end of the Republic, the timing for the myth of Er implies that Odysseus chose a life that falls during the Classical period. He selects “the life of a private individual who did his own work [i.e. one who does not engage in politics)], and with difficulty it found one lying off somewhere neglected by the others. He chose it gladly and said that he’d have made the same choice even if he’d been first” (620c) Plato might very well mean that Odysseus chose to be Socrates. And, Xenophon, Memorabilia 4.6.11, explains why this would fit: “He [Socrates] used to say that Homer himself attributed to Odysseus the quality of being an infallible speaker, because he could base his arguments on the accepted beliefs of his hearers.”
Nice! Thanks Brian!
Great article. I feel like role ethics and the example of Odysseus might give me a helpful framing to approach aspects like my life like my career. In the US, there is a not so subtle urging to subsume your entire identity in your livelihood. I find myself torn by the pressure to be the absolute best at my job, and my awareness that my work and my income are only parts of me, and ultimately subordinate to the part of me concerned with virtue. I guess then I should play the role given to me, as best as I can, until it conflicts with virtue.
Christopher, exactly. The role ethics framework has been very useful to me on two grounds: thinking about what I do and who I am; and thinking about how I can best balance my various roles in any given occasion.
🙏🙏🙏
Nadia, good question. Hypocrisy is unvirtuous, so a no-no for the Stoic. The idea is not just to play our roles, but to play them virtuously.
My best hopes and best wishes to you, and in your health struggles!