Rafael, Seneca does quote Epicurus approvingly in several of his letters to Lucilius, but he also clearly states that he is "scouting enemy territory." I think the general idea is that many wisdom traditions have something positive to contribute, but that doesn't mean they are ultimately compatible as life philosophies.
For instance, in the case of Epicureanism vs Stoicism, they differ in terms of the ultimate goal: ataraxia through lack of pain for the first, moral excellence through the practice of virtue for the second.
When the two goals come into conflict, as they sometimes do, one has to choose: Epicurus or Zeno?
I do like the idea of ataraxia a lot. I think if we eliminate anxiety, our lives automatically get a lot better.
The problem with Epicurus- in my view- is he doesn’t really give you many tools to get there whereas stoicism has a very sophisticated psychology system with many techniques that do work.
I used to have a hard time seeing how the virtues are enough but I noticed that once you make an effort to practice them you do gain a nice feeling of satisfaction when notice that you are making progress.
So I’m pretty sure I’m with the stoics, but the quotes I read from Epicurus are really beautiful, I wish more had survived.
Yes, tranquility of mind by itself seems like a somewhat shallow goal in life. I feel like it’s more like the means to an end as it makes everything else easier to deal with. I wish I could read Lucretius and learn more on Epicurus. I tried, but poems are difficult for me for some reason.
I’m very interested in your upcoming essay on Epictetus. I’m reading the AA Long book on him and it’s giving me a new perspective on The Discourses. I’m finding that they are way more complex than I perceived on my first read.
The Stoics consider ataraxia (or, to be precise, the closely related concept of apateia, lack of disturbance from the passions) as a welcome side effects of pursuing virtue. That seems right to me.
Tony Long is one of the best. The two essays on Epictetus will come out on August 21 and 28.
I agree about the beauty of some of Epicurus's quotes, and on the general soundness of much of his advice. But I agree, not as many practical tools as the Stoics. I also doubt the general Epicurean goal: tranquillity of mind is not a goal in life for me, though it's a nice byproduct of a life well lived, as the Stoics argue.
Later this summer I'll publish a two-part essay on Epictetus's version of Stoicism, where the virtues play little or no role, and which I find more convincing than the standard view.
I identify myself more with stoicism but really like a lot of the things I hear from Epicurus.
I’m not sure if they’re incompatible schools but I suspect not, since Seneca quotes Epicurus quite a bit.
Rafael, Seneca does quote Epicurus approvingly in several of his letters to Lucilius, but he also clearly states that he is "scouting enemy territory." I think the general idea is that many wisdom traditions have something positive to contribute, but that doesn't mean they are ultimately compatible as life philosophies.
For instance, in the case of Epicureanism vs Stoicism, they differ in terms of the ultimate goal: ataraxia through lack of pain for the first, moral excellence through the practice of virtue for the second.
When the two goals come into conflict, as they sometimes do, one has to choose: Epicurus or Zeno?
I do like the idea of ataraxia a lot. I think if we eliminate anxiety, our lives automatically get a lot better.
The problem with Epicurus- in my view- is he doesn’t really give you many tools to get there whereas stoicism has a very sophisticated psychology system with many techniques that do work.
I used to have a hard time seeing how the virtues are enough but I noticed that once you make an effort to practice them you do gain a nice feeling of satisfaction when notice that you are making progress.
So I’m pretty sure I’m with the stoics, but the quotes I read from Epicurus are really beautiful, I wish more had survived.
Looking forward to them Massimo, thanks for the chat!
Yes, tranquility of mind by itself seems like a somewhat shallow goal in life. I feel like it’s more like the means to an end as it makes everything else easier to deal with. I wish I could read Lucretius and learn more on Epicurus. I tried, but poems are difficult for me for some reason.
I’m very interested in your upcoming essay on Epictetus. I’m reading the AA Long book on him and it’s giving me a new perspective on The Discourses. I’m finding that they are way more complex than I perceived on my first read.
The Stoics consider ataraxia (or, to be precise, the closely related concept of apateia, lack of disturbance from the passions) as a welcome side effects of pursuing virtue. That seems right to me.
Tony Long is one of the best. The two essays on Epictetus will come out on August 21 and 28.
I agree about the beauty of some of Epicurus's quotes, and on the general soundness of much of his advice. But I agree, not as many practical tools as the Stoics. I also doubt the general Epicurean goal: tranquillity of mind is not a goal in life for me, though it's a nice byproduct of a life well lived, as the Stoics argue.
Later this summer I'll publish a two-part essay on Epictetus's version of Stoicism, where the virtues play little or no role, and which I find more convincing than the standard view.
so--my two favorite living philosophers--Massimo and Keith--both know and promote things about old Epicurus--think I'll have a glass of wine!
Cheers! 🍷
Indeed it is!