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David Willbrand's avatar

I see the relationship between evolutionary biology and the wisdom traditions differently.

You note that “it is clear what the only ultimate goods that nature set for us (and for all living organisms) are: survival and reproduction.”

The waters frequently get muddy when we talk about goods on the one hand, and means and ends on the other. So let’s say this - the ultimate end that nature set for all living organisms is reproduction. Period. Reproduction requires sex (a means). Sex requires courtship (a means). Courtship requires survival (a means). Survival requires food and some modicum of shelter. And so on.

Viewed this way, there is not much of a relationship between evolutionary biology and the wisdom traditions. Live long enough to have sex and reproduce. That’s about it. Don’t need Stoicism or Epicureanism - or Taoism, or any of the rest - for that.

Instead, I think the better approach is to view it this way: somehow, through culture and consciousness and a stable and cooperative natural platform, Homo Sapiens has evolved to a state where it exists and occupies a space well beyond the limited groove of our basic biological imperative.

We’ve elected to use this opportunity to expand what it means to “live” beyond mere reproduction. The wisdom traditions have developed over time - within the context of said culture and consciousness and natural platform - to help us define what this can mean, how to fill this space.

Evolutionary biology is useful in this exercise, because it can give us insights into the natural and ancient wiring which remains part of our biological inheritance. The study of emotions is one such example. When we understand what they are biologically, and how they operate physiologically, we have a better and deeper foundational context upon which to advance the development of the wisdom traditions.

In other words, we want to do more than merely reproduce. We want to “live.” What that means is an eternal process of cultural experimentation and individual exploration. The wisdom traditions help - enormously. And the wisdom traditions themselves are helped - enormously - when instead of simply occupying or being derived from a place of “pure reason” (whatever or wherever that is), they are situated and informed within the realm of active, real and embodied Homo Sapiens, and the messy and complicated biological systems of which we are comprised.

Also, I don’t like it when you set up these “competitions” and give Stoicism the benefit of the doubt and all your personal modifications thereof (your Stoicism is most certainly not the Stoicism of the ancients, which is fine so far as that goes) but characterize the position of your “opponents” in flatter and more strawman-like ways, anchored in a pre-history from which you allow yourself some escape. But I digress and this comment is already way too long :)

Thanks as always for the thought-provoking articles. I am fairly certain that I read every (non-ivory tower) thing you publish, and I am better for it, and appreciative!

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Matthias E's avatar

Hm, "good pain" "bad pain", this reminds me of the hedonic calculus from Epicureanism. They would bring the argument to choose pain for a greater pleasure or avoiding greater pain. But ok what is with having pleasure about pain like mentioned in the text ?

And is virtue not also instrumental to surviving and reproduction ?

Ok, when with self-preservation the character / virtue as such is meant maybe.

But the goal of Epicreanism is not "life" or "self-preservation" but the happy life (their eudaimonia).

Their action can even go against life (suicide to avoid life-long great pain for example).

So for tranquility (pleasure) it is important to act according to the own values.

But what about values ? What is the interrelation between values and pleasure/pain ?

Aren´t pleasure/pain feedback from nature or the own value system ? The feedback from the desire for self-preservation and reproduction ?

For Stoics, values come from value judgment or ? So from value of indifferents and virtue.

Is in rational judgments no feeling involved ? (Dopamine, Serotonine...) what would the neurologists say ?

I know the Stoic idea of eudaimonia/happy life is to do the right thing which includes reducing suffering / pain and bring pleasure for oneself and others but with being indifferent to the feedback or receiving the results (that is in the hand of fate).

Epicurus hedonic calculus:

"...129] And for this cause we call pleasure the beginning and end of the blessed life. For we recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us, and from pleasure we begin every act of choice and avoidance, and to pleasure we return again, using the feeling as the standard by which we judge every good.

And since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this very reason we do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided."

https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/lexicon/index.php?entry/83-epicurus-letter-to-menoeceus/

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