Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Bobby Hirtle's avatar

Massimo, I’ve long been a fan (I used to regularly attend your meetups at Society for Ethical Culture when I lived in New York) and I thoroughly enjoyed the book you edited called “How to live a good life,” which presented 15 different perspectives/philosophies on how to answer the title question. Given that one of the essays was dedicated to Effective Altruism, it left the impression that, though you wouldn’t endorse the full program (you wrote the essay on Stoicism, after all), you did find enough of its ideas worthy enough for consideration, at least insofar as one is working out their own philosophy of life.

This is where I land. Is the dominant ethical framework behind EA (consequentialism) logically sound? No, but neither is virtue ethics. Neither is, well, any ethical framework, but we needn’t set the bar so high. In my view, what’s important is that both consequentialism and virtue ethics make valuable contributions to the question of how we should live our lives. I’d argue we don’t need to lose sleep over taking any of them to their logical extremes because that’s never going to happen anyway. Hopefully I’m not raising your ‘No True Scotsman’ hairs by mentioning Stoicism and EA in the same breath, but they’ve both lent valuable insights to how I launch the arrow.

I share your critique that, to put it slightly differently, the existence of charity is itself proof that the underlying system is deeply flawed. Indeed, if it were working well, there wouldn’t be any need for charity (at least not on the scale at which it exists today). However, I don’t think this fact is sufficient to then conclude that neither I nor other privileged (i.e. not rich, but middle-income members of high-income nations) individuals should not give to charity or that we should disregard the whole enterprise. (To be fair, you didn’t outright say this, and indeed you mentioned you yourself give to charities you think are plausibly good, but the overall effect of your post’s charity skepticism could well come off as a prescription for what people should, or in this case, should not do. And this worries me. More on this soon.)

I think it’s important to distinguish between descriptive claims about the whole and prescriptive claims for individuals. On the whole, it’s unfortunate we need to have charity, but that’s the world we currently inhabit. I’m sure you’ve seen ads from nonprofits saying “take my job away.” And surely, the aim of The Against Malaria Foundation is to one day close its doors. Similarly, environmentalists are sometimes derided as hypocrites for flying in planes, but they too have to live in the world they’re trying to change. True, it would be better to wave a wand and have progressive taxation in the US (where I live), but while I continue to advocate for that, I also focus on what’s more within my control, and that’s charitable donations to effective charities, at 10% of my income. And doing so does not preclude one also maintaining a Stoic practice, volunteering locally, doing direct work, and voting.

I worry that the (otherwise very healthy) conversation about charity skepticism more broadly and the more narrow critiques of how EA in particular thinks about charity ultimately end up convincing people not to give anything. That would be a real shame. Especially if the reasons for quitting are ultimately due to unrealistic standards or the inability to live with the discomforts of ambiguity.

One thing I like about EA is it itself sprung out of charity skepticism and it ultimately worked to provide surer bets on where charity can do a ton of good, particularly in terms of global health and wellbeing.. And then of course it evolved and began to tackle other noble pursuits. Are there trade-offs between animal welfare and human welfare? Do we have an obligation to people alive 1000 years from now? Can you really use units like QALY as an imperfect but useful measure to compare charities? I don’t see these questions as hits against EA. These conversations are the lifeblood of EA. Did WIll MacAskill really advocate for taking the painting over the child in the burning building? In a way, who cares? EA is not a church and Will is not its priest. It’s not a monolith, and as movements go, I can’t think of another with greater viewpoint diversity than EA.

Finally, you mentioned that EA has had unfortunate subscribers -- people like SBF and Elon Musk. But this isn’t a reason to discard the underlying philosophy -- after all, Stoicism counts Jeff Bezos among its ranks, along with plenty of tech bros. And on the concept of thought experiments -- Epictetus likened the death of a child to losing one’s favorite cup. The point is it’s not hard to cherry pick the eye raising stuff in any body of literature. What matters is if the sensational bits are indicative of something rotten within. In the case of both EA and Stoicism, assuredly no. And indeed I don’t think these lines of argument follow in the spirit of steelmanning.

Perhaps I’m a walking contradiction or maybe I’m just hedging my bets, but I’m someone who has been heavily influenced by both Stoicism and EA. I see each of their strengths and limitations and, yes, some inherent tension between, but I have fairly high confidence that how I’m living my life and the mark I’m able to leave on the world is much greater thanks to their positive influences.

Expand full comment
Greg Lopez's avatar

I kinda like Less Wrong!

But I'm also semi-nuts, so touché, good sir.

Expand full comment
54 more comments...

No posts